ForumsSoftware ← Unwanted noise in Kaivo patch

Kaivo v1.9.4 VST 64 DEMO
Reaper v6.29
Windows 10 Home 20H2

Hi, I ran into a problem while testing the demo version of Kaivo: In some patches I get unwanted sine artifacts after I release the key. The noise is quiet yet still clearly audible.
It is decaying slowly, but strangely quantized. The sound seems unrelated to the timbre of the patch.
To demonstrate, I tried to create a very simple patch that expresses this problem.
Could someone try to replicate this behaviour?

After pasting the patch press C4 on DAW piano roll (a swift glide up the piano roll from C4 to C5 and higher gives a clearer example of the problematic sound).
I also tried simplifying the envelope by reducing release to 0, this did not change anything noticable.

no audible change when changing voices from 4 to 1 (or to higher values).

Pardon if my english is fuzzy at times, it is not my first language.
Thanks for your help and sorry if this is human error (chances are high after all!)

Patch:

{
"key_voices": 4,
"key_mod": 1,
"key_bend": 7,
"key_unison": 0,
"key_glide": 0.010000,
"seq_local": 1,
"seq_host": 0,
"seq_loop": 1,
"seq_trig": 0,
"seq_rate": 0.250000,
"seq_ratio": 1,
"seq_rate_p": 0,
"seq_steps": 16,
"seq_steps_p": 0,
"seq_offset": 0,
"seq_offset_p": 0,
"seq_range": 12,
"seq_quantize": 0,
"seq_glide": 0,
"seq_pw": 50,
"seq_value_delay": 0,
"seq_pulse_delay": 0,
"seq_value0": 0,
"seq_value1": 0,
"seq_value2": 0,
"seq_value3": 0,
"seq_value4": 0,
"seq_value5": 0,
"seq_value6": 0,
"seq_value7": 0,
"seq_value8": 0,
"seq_value9": 0,
"seq_value10": 0,
"seq_value11": 0,
"seq_value12": 0,
"seq_value13": 0,
"seq_value14": 0,
"seq_value15": 0,
"seq_pulse0": 0,
"seq_pulse1": 0,
"seq_pulse2": 0,
"seq_pulse3": 0,
"seq_pulse4": 0,
"seq_pulse5": 0,
"seq_pulse6": 0,
"seq_pulse7": 0,
"seq_pulse8": 0,
"seq_pulse9": 0,
"seq_pulse10": 0,
"seq_pulse11": 0,
"seq_pulse12": 0,
"seq_pulse13": 0,
"seq_pulse14": 0,
"seq_pulse15": 0,
"lfo_offset": 0,
"lfo_offset_x": 0,
"lfo_offset_y": 0,
"lfo_rate": 1,
"lfo_level": 1,
"lfo_quantize": 0,
"lfo_offset_p": 0,
"lfo_rate_p": 1,
"lfo_level_p": 0,
"lfo_function": "circle",
"noise_peaks": 1,
"noise_width": 0,
"noise_falloff": 0.500000,
"noise_offset": 0,
"noise_rate": 1,
"noise_level": 0,
"noise_auto": 0,
"noise_filter": 0,
"noise_offset_p": 0,
"noise_rate_p": 0,
"noise_level_p": 0,
"env1_attack": 0.001000,
"env1_decay": 1,
"env1_sustain": 1,
"env1_release": 0.180000,
"env1_level": 1,
"env1_xvel": 1,
"env1_attack_p": 0,
"env1_decay_p": 0,
"env1_release_p": 0,
"env2_repeat": 1,
"env2_delay": 0,
"env2_attack": 0.001000,
"env2_sustain": 0,
"env2_release": 0.010000,
"env2_xvel": 0,
"env2_xenv1": 1,
"env2_delay_p": 0,
"env2_attack_p": 0,
"env2_repeat_p": 1,
"env2_release_p": 0,
"gran_position_x": 0.511000,
"gran_position_y": 0.540000,
"gran_rate_noise": 0,
"gran_rate": 220,
"gran_density": 2,
"gran_pitch": 0,
"gran_pitch_env": 0,
"gran_pan": 0,
"gran_follow": 0,
"gran_smooth": 0,
"gran_wrap": 1,
"gran_position_x_p": 0,
"gran_position_y_p": 0,
"gran_rate_p": 1,
"gran_density_p": 1,
"gran_pitch_p": 1,
"gran_pitch_lin_p": 0,
"gran_pitch_env_p": 0,
"gran_pan_p": 0,
"gate_level": 0,
"gate_mode": 0,
"gate_decay": 0,
"gate_leak": 0,
"gate_level_p": 0.500000,
"res_position": 0.500000,
"res_brightness": 0.500000,
"res_pitch": 440,
"res_nonlin": 0,
"res_sustain": 0.500000,
"res_pan": 0,
"res_mode": "gut string",
"res_position_p": 0,
"res_brightness_p": 0,
"res_pitch_p": 1,
"res_pitch_lin_p": 0,
"res_nonlin_p": 0,
"res_sustain_p": 0,
"res_pan_p": 0,
"res_mix_wet": 0.500000,
"res_mix_dry": 1,
"body_position_x": 0.500000,
"body_position_y": 0.500000,
"body_nonlin": 0,
"body_tone": 0.500000,
"body_pitch": 0,
"body_sustain": 0.500000,
"body_pitch_mode": 1,
"body_mode": "metal plate",
"body_position_x_p": 0,
"body_position_y_p": 0,
"body_nonlin_p": 0,
"body_tone_p": 0,
"body_pitch_p": 1,
"body_sustain_p": 0,
"body_mix_wet": 0.500000,
"body_mix_dry": 1,
"output_tilt": 0,
"output_chorus": 0,
"output_limit": 1,
"patcher_matrix": {
"type": "signal",
"width": 17,
"height": 44,
"depth": 1,
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},
"key_scale": "12-equal",
"key_mod_mpe_x": 73,
"key_bend_mpe": 48,
"seq_rate_quantize": 0,
"preset": "Kaivo default",
"sample_name": "Eigen/taiko",
"maker_name": "Madrona Labs",
"app_name": "Kaivo",
"app_version": 67844
}

I'm not sure if I understand your problem exactly.

But looking at your sound, I realized that your Resonator is not following the pitch of the sound.
That means only one part of your sound changes its pitch.
Particularly when you play the note A, your hear a stronger resonance. Here, the resonator and the note coming from the sampler play at the same pitch and therefore create a stronger resonance.

Simply patch the pitch into the exponential input of the Resonators pitch input and see if that works for your patch:

{
"key_voices": 4,
"key_mod": 1,
"key_bend": 7,
"key_unison": 0,
"key_glide": 0.010000,
"seq_local": 1,
"seq_host": 0,
"seq_loop": 1,
"seq_trig": 0,
"seq_rate": 0.250000,
"seq_ratio": 1,
"seq_rate_p": 0,
"seq_steps": 16,
"seq_steps_p": 0,
"seq_offset": 0,
"seq_offset_p": 0,
"seq_range": 12,
"seq_quantize": 0,
"seq_glide": 0,
"seq_pw": 50,
"seq_value_delay": 0,
"seq_pulse_delay": 0,
"seq_value0": 0,
"seq_value1": 0,
"seq_value2": 0,
"seq_value3": 0,
"seq_value4": 0,
"seq_value5": 0,
"seq_value6": 0,
"seq_value7": 0,
"seq_value8": 0,
"seq_value9": 0,
"seq_value10": 0,
"seq_value11": 0,
"seq_value12": 0,
"seq_value13": 0,
"seq_value14": 0,
"seq_value15": 0,
"seq_pulse0": 0,
"seq_pulse1": 0,
"seq_pulse2": 0,
"seq_pulse3": 0,
"seq_pulse4": 0,
"seq_pulse5": 0,
"seq_pulse6": 0,
"seq_pulse7": 0,
"seq_pulse8": 0,
"seq_pulse9": 0,
"seq_pulse10": 0,
"seq_pulse11": 0,
"seq_pulse12": 0,
"seq_pulse13": 0,
"seq_pulse14": 0,
"seq_pulse15": 0,
"lfo_offset": 0,
"lfo_offset_x": 0,
"lfo_offset_y": 0,
"lfo_rate": 1,
"lfo_level": 1,
"lfo_quantize": 0,
"lfo_offset_p": 0,
"lfo_rate_p": 1,
"lfo_level_p": 0,
"lfo_function": "circle",
"noise_peaks": 1,
"noise_width": 0,
"noise_falloff": 0.500000,
"noise_offset": 0,
"noise_rate": 1,
"noise_level": 0,
"noise_auto": 0,
"noise_filter": 0,
"noise_offset_p": 0,
"noise_rate_p": 0,
"noise_level_p": 0,
"env1_attack": 0.001000,
"env1_decay": 1,
"env1_sustain": 1,
"env1_release": 0.180000,
"env1_level": 1,
"env1_xvel": 1,
"env1_attack_p": 0,
"env1_decay_p": 0,
"env1_release_p": 0,
"env2_repeat": 1,
"env2_delay": 0,
"env2_attack": 0.001000,
"env2_sustain": 0,
"env2_release": 0.010000,
"env2_xvel": 0,
"env2_xenv1": 1,
"env2_delay_p": 0,
"env2_attack_p": 0,
"env2_repeat_p": 1,
"env2_release_p": 0,
"gran_position_x": 0.511000,
"gran_position_y": 0.540000,
"gran_rate_noise": 0,
"gran_rate": 220,
"gran_density": 2,
"gran_pitch": 0,
"gran_pitch_env": 0,
"gran_pan": 0,
"gran_follow": 0,
"gran_smooth": 0,
"gran_wrap": 1,
"gran_position_x_p": 0,
"gran_position_y_p": 0,
"gran_rate_p": 1,
"gran_density_p": 1,
"gran_pitch_p": 1,
"gran_pitch_lin_p": 0,
"gran_pitch_env_p": 0,
"gran_pan_p": 0,
"gate_level": 0,
"gate_mode": 0,
"gate_decay": 0,
"gate_leak": 0,
"gate_level_p": 0.500000,
"res_position": 0.500000,
"res_brightness": 0.500000,
"res_pitch": 440,
"res_nonlin": 0,
"res_sustain": 0.500000,
"res_pan": 0,
"res_mode": "gut string",
"res_position_p": 0,
"res_brightness_p": 0,
"res_pitch_p": 1,
"res_pitch_lin_p": 0,
"res_nonlin_p": 0,
"res_sustain_p": 0,
"res_pan_p": 0,
"res_mix_wet": 0.500000,
"res_mix_dry": 1,
"body_position_x": 0.500000,
"body_position_y": 0.500000,
"body_nonlin": 0,
"body_tone": 0.500000,
"body_pitch": 0,
"body_sustain": 0.500000,
"body_pitch_mode": 1,
"body_mode": "metal plate",
"body_position_x_p": 0,
"body_position_y_p": 0,
"body_nonlin_p": 0,
"body_tone_p": 0,
"body_pitch_p": 1,
"body_sustain_p": 0,
"body_mix_wet": 0.500000,
"body_mix_dry": 1,
"output_tilt": 0,
"output_chorus": 0,
"output_limit": 1,
"patcher_matrix": {
"type": "signal",
"width": 17,
"height": 44,
"depth": 1,
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},
"key_scale": "12-equal",
"preset": "Kaivo default",
"sample_name": "Eigen/taiko",
"maker_name": "Madrona Labs",
"app_name": "Kaivo",
"app_version": 67842
}

If you want to change the decay behavior of your sound, look at the 2 sustain controls in the resonator and the body.

The resonator sustain changes the way of the decay in a more obvious way, while the body sustain works more like a room effect, in your sound.

Thanks for your reply! As I'm still using the demo version of Kaivo, I can't paste patches yet.
Let me try to articulate my problem a bit clearer: After the sound of the patch has completely faded, there are high pitched artifacts that sound a bit like radio interference. This phenomenon seems to be related to a high dry value in the resonator. I can hear it quite clearly in the factory preset "flange strings" for example.
Is there a way to upload a .wav file? I've made a recording of the sound, maybe that could help. Would be good to know if this is an issue with my system/DAW or if it is a bug in the software.

Out of curiosity, I tried the flange strings preset. It doesn't use the resonator or the body :) I also didn't find a high pitched sound. It seems to me that radio interference could actually be the demo noise? It's been to long since I've had it as a demo, can not test that.

However... I did find something odd with this preset. There is a very low frequency present (may be DC offset) which isn't caused by long release times or the Body or Resonator. Instead, I goes away when I turn the Leak parameter in the VCA up (!!). That's a bit weird.

...turning the Leak parameter up actually fixed it, who would have thought! Thank you very much!
Can buy kaivo now without regrets.

Wow! Well, I didn't expect it, but I'm glad I could be of help!

I thought also that you were just experiencing the normal operation of Kaivo's resonator. But this sounds like something different. I'll try to reproduce this with your patch. Aléatoire, please feel free to send me a wav file of the artifacts to support at madronalabs.com.

I looked into the posted sound and the preset flange string and I couldn't find anything wrong there.

The flange string preset has a pretty long release time. I guess this together with the low pass gate emulation causes the sound to really go on for long at a low level and frequency.
The leak parameter blocks some of this low frequency content and makes the sound appear shorter.

When it comes to the posted sound I hear different things happening, causing different artefacts depending on the pitch.
First, the resonator doesn't follow the pitch of the granulator. This gives slightly up to extremly different textures for the sound, depending on the pitch of the granulator - with an extreme resonance at A4.
The other thing I notice are some artefacts that are caused by the granulator when it creates the grains. They sound like a sideband or aliasing.
Usually, they are harder to hear, but with a short cycle sine wave they are more obvious.
Increasing the leak parameter up to the point that the noise becomes very audible covers these artefacts even though they are still audible. Deactivating the automatic grain generation gets rid of this effect.

To get a cleaner playable version of the posted sound, I connected the pitch out to the exponential input of the resonator pitch input and set the attenuverter to its default value.

To get rid of the granulator artefacts on the sine, I set the grain rate to 0, connect the gate out to the granulator trigger in and activate follow (leaving wrap activated as well).
With this sound I don't experience anything that would sound weird to me. Especially when doing the C4 to C5 diatonic glissando.

Of course the character of the sound changes drastically once the resonator follows the pitch. The effect of the grain rate is rather subtle.
I couldn't see how leak would change anything to the sound other than introducing noise or helping the sound to reach actual silence faster.

Thanks for the thoughts @pdt.

@aleatoire, I played the WAV sample you sent me and on the long decay there is only DC, in other words, a constant value that slowly decays. This is at under -50dB, so I don't see it as a major problem. But I wonder if something in your audio chain does not like the DC and is converting it into high frequencies somehow, with the distortion you are describing. From the sound you sent me that is my only guess.

In any case this explains why the "leak" setting removed the problem. It removes DC.